Gameplay Bug with dagger throwing

[KnightRider]

Hi, first off i like to pass my gratitude to all the developers of this game including the mods. this is the best multilayer game on the Amiga and it is just as fun today if not more (as we no longer need to share the same screen :P).

Cheap Dagger kill issue;

With the Pc port the daggers shoot twice as fast as the Amiga version. Im not sure if its a intentional modification but the *main problem* is when using daggers at toe to toe range - as a player can kill his opponent with daggers at toe to toe before the other player has time to complete one swing of his sword which is unfair. (Keeping in mind a opponent cant block/dodge daggers and is unable to use his sword while continuously getting hit by them) - so why use your sword in close range attack? .

My suggestion is that daggers shouldn't be able to be thrown at toe to toe and/or making it at slower speed with dodge chance like in the Amiga version . I leave it up to your genius to correct this imbalance in the way you see fit. - keep in mind its worth your time as this game rocks- even by today's standards. Until it gets fixed i wont exploit this bug.
Thanks for your time.

[ImpassIve]

Hello there.
I haven't played original Amiga version because I'm a bit too young, so I can't compare these speeds, but anyway...
...are you sure this is such a "game-killer issue"?

I've played this game for a while (something like a year, I suppose?) and I can't call daggers overpowered.
Yes, they are really useful in defensive situations like this:

(if an enemy knight has no space to avoid those daggers or if you are throwing daggers at a doorway)

But let's imagine such situation:

You have to cross this corridor, but the enemy knight with an axe is waiting for you, so you have to kill him first.
Will you have enought time to step at the cross-road, turn, open contex menu by holding "Space" for a 1-1.5 sec and select a dagger? (that would be easier with mouse control, but an artificial delay is present)
I suppose, you'd rather try to block his first attack with your sword and then counter-attack, because in other case you are guaranteed to get at least 1 hit while 2 hits is enough to kill you...

In my opinion, they are mostly "surprise" weapon because unlike sword/hammer/axe/crossbow enemy can't know for sure if you have them and if you are going to use them... for example, they can be used in close combat if your enemy prefer counter-attacks (so, you have enough time to use daggers, while he is waiting for your strike - Moo periodically catches me in this manner), so they are adding a bit "spicy" to the game, not ruining it...

P.S. That is just my "imho", I don't claim that I am 100% right.
P.P.S. English is not my native language, sorry for numerous grammar errors.

[KnightRider]

interesting.. i like the pictures and agree with your good points... i guess my only potentially valid point  is regarding throwing daggers at face to face this range (as in the picture here) for this reason;

For example;
lets say your in that range and your opponent is attacking you nonstop with his sword. You can keep standing still in block mode . While you are block mode , you can *safely* (while in middle of his attack) select daggers and kill him without getting hit  -  this always works because the daggers shoot faster than your opponents sword attack and keeping your opponent  paralyzed .. till he dies) .

i don't use daggers in this specific way in case  it may be unfair to the other player. i  i think daggers should only work if the are *least* one square space between you and you opponent (but that's only just a personal opinion :)  .)
Do you agree with my point? or would you rather keep as it is ? Let me know what you think .Cheers

[ImpassIve]

"i think daggers should only work if the are *least* one square space between you and you opponent"

Well, thats sounds like an interesting idea, although I do not fully understand how exactly it is supposed to be implemented:
1) Daggers will deal 0 damage at close range (weird version, since IRL you still can stab your opponent in melee with a dagger)
2) You can't throw daggers while an enemy knight is occupying corresponding adjacent floor cell (there is a problem with moving knights)
3) Something other?

About your picture... Look's like I've got what you wanted to say. Ability to block somebody at his own spawn door?
Kill => Pick up daggers => Wait for him to respawn at the same tile => Repeat?

Well, thats really sounds unfair (since such player has no chance to get better equipment/run away/do something else), but spawn hunting in general is a not-very-good tone (and has no matter in most scenarios, except Deathmatch).

In other cases... I'am not sure.
Why not to test it out in deathmatch at weekly games?)


OFFTOP (just to avoid creating a new topic, since Stephen is still checking most topics)
Just curious, subversion link from wiki ( svn://svn.knightsgame.org.uk/trunk/ ) is not working anymore?

[Stephen]

Thanks for this - I haven't had time to read through the whole thread yet but I will look into it when I get a chance.

The intention was for the game to be as close as possible to the original Amiga version, however I am not against making changes if people think this will improve gameplay.

I think I am going to fire up my copy of WinUAE and do some experiments with daggers now :)

Also regarding svn: hmm, looks like it might be a DNS problem. svn.knightsgame.org.uk doesn't work,  but if you do svn://knightsgame.org.uk/trunk it seems to work.

[KnightRider]

I just replayed the Amiga version and i was right on all three accounts..so in short i should of posted this and saved alot of time.

So in short i should of said in my first post was this;
Bug /Port error report
1) in the PC version, daggers are always thrown at 2x the original Amiga speed, both for normal mode and super/quickness mode
2) In the PC version, Daggers no longer have small critical miss chance like axes do where they just stun (unlike the Amiga version)
3) In the Amiga version YOU CANT throw daggers when there is a player in the next adjacent square where pc version you can.


As it is at the moment with the pc version (unlike the Amiga version) ,a player will win *every* sword duel just by standing still in guard and selecting daggers in the amidst of his opponents attacks (even if that attacker is attacking with super/quickness while the defender has no power ups - ). The Amiga parameters above preserve the sword dueling aspect of the game and keep the game balanced.
Thanks Stephen for looking into this. Much appreciated. ;)

[K9]

That is great summary of issue. Thank you for clarifications.  I'd rank it up there with "gate squish = lose hit points", another element that was lost in translation from the original.

I can see how some details like these did not carry over, it's a complex game, in terms of programming.  In more cases than others, Stephen improved the gameplay, and I can attest that's he has always righted any wrongs and unfairness that may have inadvertently snuck in his versions (when he has time to do so, as he said).

I have to admit I've been in your situation with line of dagger fire and certain death.  Especially a challenge that Moo presents from time to time, but as ImpassIve_rus stated, I concur, it added a little spice, and I also considered it a melee sort of thing, like don't bring a sword to a gun fight.  In my mind during those closeup and rare  rapid dagger kills, I just pictured me trying to reach for my sword while someone with daggers next to me slices and dices (Knights just doesn't have the graphics to support my visual, therefore just looks like a lot of throwing).

And, completely to your point though, fairness is key, a reasonable dagger reflection from a standing still guarded position would be a great fix.

Meanwhile, I am certain in our small community of generally "way cool" people, you need only ask during gameplay chat for some relief, tell them you prefer they NOT dagger spam you and I believe anyone would comply to keep things fair and fun for everyone.

Speaking for myself, your post is definitely appreciated, we haven't seen very much forum action lately, this is a nice discussion.

[KnightRider]

Thanks for the positive reply K9.
I thought also to post these post two other bug reports, though not critical as the dagger issue, they are still worthy to mention never the less...
.
New bug /port error reports;

1) Rising Gate collision detection .- In the original Amiga version of knights, a player/creature will get squished if they stood on a gate line while it rose up through the activation of a switch or pressure plate . This doesn't happen on the pc version.

2) Wand of securing damage- In the  Amiga version the wand of securing doesn't do damage just stun where in the pc port it does damage.

Stephen ill will post you some donations for your work in time . Thanks


**below are just for amusement and not bug reports**

Witb the sernario pictures posted by ImpassIve_rus

With the one with the red knight trying to ambush the blue with the axe;

If the red has no power ups, nor daggers ups and the blue has full health and daggers the blue will win as he'll surive the first hit , turn into guard then flood with  the daggers (if the dagger bug is exploited). The original swordvs sword are part of the skeleton game play aspect of the game , where the better player will win 80-90% of all melee vs melee fights as hell have better timing (that is if  the dagger bug isn't exploited .)

the one with the two knights in the corridor;

In the original version,  the blue is waiting with daggers he would have a 90 % of killing the red with the daggers before reaching blue .. however if the red is *extremely* lucky, he'll get critical misses with the knifes  and get close with the  intention of doing a running attack before he dies. if the blue is on the ball with good timing, hell swing  his sword as he approaches killing the red knight with the sword (as red would not be on guard while approaching ) ..a  satisfying and humorous win for blue.).
Also if the red had a good regeneration potion (some generations were better than others - i'm sure its like that on both ports) he could charge up and hit the red running attack and survive  (if he was lucky and daring enough). both knights could also do a knife war *if* they both had same advantage with time where the regeneration knight will have an advantage.
Now lets say if blue had quickness or super, hell kill the red with his daggers - *instantly*.
All these variations make the game more fun, tactful and humorous but  like said earlier, they wont be present till the dagger issued is addressed

As with real life scenario claims; :)
In a real battle, you would have pre drawn your sword out before charging out in battle, nor would you  put it back in your holster after every swing :P. Another point is that also that drawing a sword is not separated than a attack, look at a Samaria for example he draws his sword and cuts in one move. Also you wouldn't attack a guy armed  with a sword with a dagger as melee (throwing dagger mind you). It would be like in the movie Crocodile Dundee where the guy pulls out a pocket knife and Crocodile Dundee responds "call that a knife ... this is a knife *pulls out a bowie knife*(but instead of a bowie knife its a full fledged sword :P)  Also with throwing daggers ,you wouldn't be able to throw them up close with a guy armed with his sword IRL ..he'll stab/slice before you could with throw your dagger but you could use a throwing dagger if you had *some* distance between you and your opponent. ;)

[K9]

Regarding your real life scenarios, I must say, Touché...   ;D

You are bringing the most evocative illustrations for discussion that I've seen here in quite some time.

Also, thanks for enduring the tough ping from your region to join our weekend quests recently!


Oh, and I really love the Dundee reference, one of my fav movie series..  8)

[KnightRider]

Cheers K9 for the reply. I admit it is a bit cumbersome having a high ping at times but its worth it. i kinda pretend my Knight is a old veteran knight (like Sean Connery) can still hold is ground but not as fast as the younger warriors. Glad you like the movie reference , being Australian myself there's no way i could have not seen that film and using it as an analogy. :P

Stephen - I will post anymore bugs/inconsistencies that i find later in time on this thread  (to save making more threads). I will also send you a email after this post to get some details in sending a donation down to you.  Thanks. :)

[Stephen]

Thanks everyone for a very interesting discussion.

So in short i should of said in my first post was this;
Bug /Port error report
1) in the PC version, daggers are always thrown at 2x the original Amiga speed, both for normal mode and super/quickness mode
2) In the PC version, Daggers no longer have small critical miss chance like axes do where they just stun (unlike the Amiga version)
3) In the Amiga version YOU CANT throw daggers when there is a player in the next adjacent square where pc version you can.

I think I will just change all three of these to be the same as the Amiga version - unless anyone objects?

1) Rising Gate collision detection .- In the original Amiga version of knights, a player/creature will get squished if they stood on a gate line while it rose up through the activation of a switch or pressure plate . This doesn't happen on the pc version.

Oops, yes, you're right. I vaguely remember we discussed this before but it seems I forgot to actually fix it :) Will try to get this done some time.

2) Wand of securing damage- In the  Amiga version the wand of securing doesn't do damage just stun where in the pc port it does damage.

This is actually deliberate. We discussed the wand of securing a while ago, some people didn't like the "stun" behaviour so I changed it to just do a small amount of damage instead.

[K9]

No objections here for the dagger and gate elements (to be more like Amiga original behavior)... 

Ditto on what you said for the wand, public already pitched in on that.


Thank you Stephen!

[Stephen]

Just an update: I have now checked in a fix for the dagger bug and the gate squishing (plus one or two other things).

I will do a release when I get time (probably next week) so that people can get access to these.

[K9]

Looking forward to seeing those changes, should definitely add spice to the already great mix of fun during our weekly games.

[KnightRider]

Thanks everyone for a very interesting discussion.

So in short i should of said in my first post was this;
Bug /Port error report
1) in the PC version, daggers are always thrown at 2x the original Amiga speed, both for normal mode and super/quickness mode
2) In the PC version, Daggers no longer have small critical miss chance like axes do where they just stun (unlike the Amiga version)
3) In the Amiga version YOU CANT throw daggers when there is a player in the next adjacent square where pc version you can.

I think I will just change all three of these to be the same as the Amiga version - unless anyone objects?

Hey Stephen i have to bring to attention that 2 and 3 havnt been implemented into the 24 fix yet. In fact they are just as  or, if not more important than 1 (imo) , as they makes the game combat more balanced/fair, strategic and most importantly.. fun .
sorry for reporting it so late, i only just returned to knights.
Cheers Stephen : )